In the Comments section below, please post a response of at least one full paragraph (min. 5 sentences). Your assignment is twofold: 1) you are to demonstrate a clear understanding of the text by attempting to summarize the text's argument as precisely as possible, and 2) you are to use your comment to ask the text (or ask your peers) at least one thoughtful question.
Remember: your comment can respond directly to other students' posts on this text. The goal of this forum is to offer an opportunity for intelligent dialogue related to the works we are studying in class. Respectful debate is always welcome.
The Journey of the Magi seems to tell the story of the trip the wise-men took on their way to see Jesus at birth. The Magi only complain the whole way, and when they finally arrive at their destination, they complain that the birth was "hard and bitter agony." They were expecting Jesus to be born in majesty and splendor; after all, they had traveled a long way and suffered much to witness the birth. When they arrived, they saw the birth as more like a death - agonizing and miserable. This is something that Eliot seems to do a lot in his poetry. He made the idea of the birth more poetic than the actual birth itself. Eliot makes the pursuit of a thing more desirable than the thing itself. My question is what does Elliot mean when he says "we came down to a temperate valley" when they came to the place of Christ's birth?
ReplyDelete-Mike Lentz
I think the “temperate valley” that Eliot describes could refer to the Resurrection or the birth of Christ. The word “temperate” can mean two things: one is fair and moderate weather (which might be significant because most modernists are obsessed with the weather), and another meaning is “without extravagance and restraint”. In light of this, Eliot could be talking about the Resurrection and the Nativity, because both events were humble and not extravagant, and the people that were in these cities when both events occurred were unaware of what was going on.
ReplyDeleteEliot and other poets often use cold weather to describe unhappiness and depression, but since Eliot describes the valley as “temperate”, I think it is symbolic of the hope and happiness that came from these two events.
After discussing this poem in class for a bit things started making more sense. The Magi are an objective correlative representing alienation mostly, we established today after discovering what an objective correlative was. Unlike the Red roses or the Blue Violets, the idea of Magi being this sort of eternal symbol for nomadic outsiders has not faded or cliched over time. I am wondering though if all objective correlatives are as abstract as this? I'm not disagreeing in any way, but I feel like if we just started using the example of Magi as a symbol for this deeper meaning, that in time it too would die out and no longer be an adequate symbol. I think this applies in all cases. The things considered cliche are that way for a reason. Everyone understands the meaning, simply because of the way our culture and the way of communication works. So couldn't anything "out of the ordinary" or uncommon be an objective correlative?
ReplyDeleteRachel, looking online for alternate definitions for an objective correlative i found that it is a sequence of events that evokes an emotion out of a reader. I think as an answer to your question i would say that anything "out of the ordinary" that makes the reader feel something could be an objective correlative. I think in this poem the idea of the magi being the ultimate symbol for wanderers and alienation is the perfect example of an objective correlative. Readers would be able to feel a sense of understanding when reading about the magi
ReplyDeleteI agree that the magi are a symbol for wanderers and alienation and i like what you said about the readers being able to feel a sense of understanding when reading this. I think that by the magi traveling so far and having such hard times and when arriving, seeing Jesus' birth as death they think that God is not really powerful at all and can not help mankind. They probably expected a magnificent birth since it was God being born, but what they saw shattered any belief that God was their protector. When seeing the people believe in such a thing, they felt alienated because they could not believe what they did.I want to know what was meant by "I should be glad of another death". Was it because they did not want to be alienated anymore or was it sarcasm in saying that there is nothing really to look forward to?
ReplyDeleteI do not think that these magi, who were searching for baby Jesus, had much motivation to travel. As Mike said, they complained the whole time. All they could think about was the great things they had back at home instead of the birth of Jesus that they were searching for. When they finally reached their destination and found baby Jesus, they could not even decide if it was a good thing or a bad thing. After a long, difficult journey, you would think that a great ending like this would feel rewarding. My question is, if the magi did not even find joy in Jesus' birth, why do they say that they would do it again?
ReplyDeleteI think that although they didnt find joy in Jesus' birth that they would do it again because, it is their job. They are astrologers and tehrefore if they saw the same star in the sky, they would follow its "directions" again. They were not excited by Jesus' brith, however they may have been excited that they were correct in predicting a birth. My question is how is this birth their death (last stanza)? Do they recognize that there is something special about this birth, and if so what?
ReplyDeleteWell like we talked about in class today they seem to be aware that the birth means somthing because they return home and are outcast because they believe differently. It talks about how the others "cling to their pagan gods" which is what the Magi used to beleive but not after seeing the birth. They may not necissarily beleive in the birth but they at least can acnowledge that it happened and that it was special. They may not fully understand that it is Jesus whose bith they saw because by the time he starts preforming miricals their all probably dead. But they do seem to realize there is somthing special about the birth because when they return they feel like outcasts almost.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kelly that they may not know what they were traveling for, but they were aware it was very important so they needed to continue on. As said in class, this poem is saying that the truth does exist and those who seek it will be rewarded. I believe that is why the maji continue on there journey.
ReplyDelete"Journey of a Magi" is a poem in which T. S. Eliot fills with so much imagery that when I first read it, I basically thought it was a poem with no deeper meaning. The poem uses words and scenarios that are all supposed to tie in together under its main point, or be somewhat related to where T.S. Eliot was attempting to go with it. With deeper reading and thinking in relative to the actual life of Jesus Christ, certain images become symbolic of items from events in the life of Christ up to his death. When the Magi come across "three trees all lined up under the sky," they are basically seeing or being the shown the death of the child the were currently seeking out. The issue with the Magi see these foreshadowing glimpses of the life of Christ yet they do not understand them because they have yet to happen. The Magi are just going to see the newborn child and would completely be unaware of these events they are shown.
ReplyDeleteJust like Folarin, I too did not believe there was a deeper meaning in this poem, but obviously I was mistaken. I know see it for what it really is. I think it show blind faith. I think that the Magi are people who were on a quest to find Jesus and they had blind faith. I believe this because what normal person would go looking for a baby and think that maybe that baby is Christ? I know I probably would not have done that. They were on a journey to discover truth and they did find it, but they were puzzled by what they had found. Nothing had happened yet and they did not know how to apply the things they had seen.
ReplyDeleteAND ON A GREATER NOTE! BTDUBBS!
JUNIORS CRUSHED CAMACHO AND HIS SAD LITTLE FRESHMEN IN KICKBALL 3/23/11. 4th period. THAT IS ALL!
MMMKAY! BYE!
Alex, I don’t think this poem really shows blind faith. The Magi were astrologers, meaning that they studied and worshiped the stars. They saw the star that they thought would lead them to a god. When they were on the journey, they were not blindly going just anywhere, they were following the star. They knew that they were headed to the place where this god would be. They complained the whole entire trip and when they eventually arrived at the house where Christ was, they were not filled with Joy like we usually think they were, according to Eliot. When they arrived at the place where Christ was, they were confused because they did not know if they were witnissing Christ's birth or their death. They had come all this way and had lived their lives for this moment when they would meet a god, but when they finally arrived, they saw, not a god, but a child. They saw this as their own death. The thinking that they had missed the mark and had miscalculated caused them to miss the God that was right in front of them. This gives them a feeling of hopelessness, not found faith. This hopelessness translates to meaninglessness and the last line of the poem "I should be glad of another death." portrays the Magi's longing for Christ's death. Since Christ was not the "god" that they were looking for, they would rather he be dead. My question: what is the "old dispensation" that is referred to in the final stanza?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Holly on the idea that the magi are symbols for wanderers and alienation as well as a good example of an objective correlative. The last stanza allows the reader to relate and have a sense of understanding towards the Magi.
ReplyDelete"This: were we lead all that way for
Birth or Death? There was a Birth, certainly,
We had evidence and no doubt. I have seen birth and death,
But had thought they were different; this Birth was
Hard and bitter agony for us, like Death, our death.
We returned to our places, these Kingdoms,
But no longer at ease here, in the old dispensation,
With an alien people clutching their gods.
I should be glad of another death."
I think the Magi in this section of the poem the allow the readers to feel a sense of understanding, because the Magi are wandering looking for truth and seem to find it but are never satisfied and instead, the truth makes the Magi feel uneasy. I think this is a perfect example of an objective correlative because a lot of people can relate to it in regards of searching for truth in religion and in life in general. My question relates to Mike's question about the"old dispensation". Is the "old dispensation" 'just referring to the Magi's old way of life before they want on their journey and discovered baby Jesus?